Curse

My Sweet Revenga · Sep 22, 2006, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

I would never use a full team of henchies in Abbondons Mouth why because of they get to close to the seals and if you don't play Monk who is going to res the Monks healers when dead.What would you do if you weren't /Mo the reason for so many War/Mo in the game hopefully we will be eable to chanhe thier skill bars for all campaigns when NF comes out.I don't like useing henches in missions regardless pugs anyday for me.

I never had problems with henchies before in tyria. In fact, I found the henches way more reliable than pugs. I regarded them as extensions of my own will. I call a target and they ALL attack the same target. Try getting a pug to do that consistently. And the hench healers were lightning quick and other than maybe the occasional hiccup with battle rezzing, they were better than most pug healers I've had the misfortune to be teamed up with.

The only thing I couldn't do in tyria with henchies was run from beacons to droks, or the thirsty river bonus. Yes that does mean I could complete thirsty river with henchies. I'm sure glad I worked and completed my tyria grand master cartography title last week because if I were to do it now with the hench ai update, I'd have a hellava time getting anywhere in the shiverpeaks.

Fossa · Sep 22, 2006, 11:14 PM // 23:14

They will restore the old hench after the weekend but after playing with the flag hench I have a feeling they might actually be the better of the two, even with agressive setting on.

Garrett OneEye · Sep 23, 2006, 01:13 AM // 01:13

There is a way to control normal henchies with the new flag system....

1) Hit the little flag button at the bottom of the compass.
2) Left click on compass to set flag and all of the henchies will run there. They tend to stay at flag, too.
3) Warriors will attack your called target, even if they hafta run away from flag. Monks will follow just enough to heal the warriors.
4) Dbl-click on the flag button to cancel flag orders. Henchies back to normal mode.

And, what I find helps alot: you can hotkey the flagging command.
1) Under Menu..Options..Control
2) Select "Action: Command Party"
3) Assign whichever hotkey you want.
4) Hit your hotkey to bring up the flag option.
5) You can place flag in compass or directly on-screen.
6) Dbl-click your hotkey to cancel flag.

The whole system seems to work better so far as I can tell. With the addition of setting the aggressive, passive, and defence buttons for your heroes (can't do that for normal henchies atm), it should work very well.

BTW, all this was tested in Tyria with my original character , so it's not just for the NF campaign.

Matsumi · Sep 23, 2006, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Oh, I see now... I never noticed those little buttons up by the compass before. I thought I was just doomed with overly aggressive henchmen.

Evilsod · Sep 23, 2006, 12:52 PM // 12:52

This henchman AI is awful...

I'm trying to lure... Dunkoro runs in head first (even before Koss). Although that was probably because i left him on Agressive.

I hide behind a statue (because Dunkoro is dead again) and Koss immediatly breaks agro... wtf happened to them, this AI is beyond shit.

Don Zardeone · Sep 23, 2006, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Yes the new AI made things way too easy. It takes an hour or so to get used to it but so far it's been great.

I can now easily flawless THK with henchies, do split teams like no pug would ever be able to do. It's just amazing. (In THK, you can almost, -almost- go afk, the henchies will figure it out)

No I'm not being sarcastic. The AI is seriously BETTER than before.
The only problems I've had so far was when fighting a mob of Magho Hydras while 2 other mobs come in and beat up my party. The flesh golems just create a small army of minions and then my henchies get overwhelmed. Add to that the fact that the proph henchies can't interrupt 3-4 meteor showers and you see a lot of bright red bars go to dark red in a matter of seconds.

But that problem existed before the update too. In fact, with flags, I can just let the henchies stay where they are, run into the hydras, trigger the meteor showers and then charge in, mowing them down!

I see absolutely no use in playing with humans anymore. These humans either go out and get good equipment, learn how to play their profession and actually make a difference in a party, or they can stay where they are and complain about other people.

The henchmen are perfect now. Except maybe the prophecies ones where we don't have out heroes (will we get them in proph too?) and the standard hench don't include an interrupt hench.

The problems you people are describing sound as if you are using the henchmen the way you are used to. When something changes, try to figure out what the best way of using them is now.

Them running after a star blade that is in their aggro but not on their path is probably something that can be tweaked or messed with. But for the rest, the new hench are great.

(tip: try using the flags)

Oh and btw, I can't remove the flags once they are placed. People told me to doubleclick the radar flag thingy or the red X but those either don't do anything or are greyed out. So I have to manually send my henchies everywhere. What gives?

Carth` · Sep 23, 2006, 02:00 PM // 14:00

I have Koss on aggressive and half of the time he won't attack. I have Dunkoro on passive and he somehow manages to get attacked, then runs away, ALWAYS into the mobs. He aggroes 5 other mobs in the process of his "kiting". I would rather he stands still and gets hit than that.

The flags don't always work either. I wanted to retreat from battle so I put a flag somewhere safe. Me and Koss are running away, Koss going to his flag, then suddenly he turns round, and in his skills window I see he is using Resurrect. He is out of aggro range of the rest of the team, and we are running, and I set a waypoint for him. But once he decides to do something else, he'll do that instead of anything else. No way of stopping him. It's the same for if he decides to attack something (out of aggro range). You see a skill flashing to be used and him running off, and there's nothing you can do about it.

It's next to impossible to break aggro. Half the team will, but some of them (usually the warriors) sit there attacking and dying. It used to be possible to run past some enemies, not any more. It used to be possible to lure, not any more. It used to be possible to retreat, not any more. It used to be easy to hench from Droknar's Forge to Beacon's Perch, not any more.

muddog · Sep 23, 2006, 03:19 PM // 15:19

i tried to do some capping at ring of fire yesterday night and this morning, and i was puzzled why the henchmen where being so friggin stupid. they were aggroing everything, and not following my orders. i set the flag so they would stand about 1 aggro radius away from a mursaat tower, then i would go pull the jade bows, but the warrior henches would charge the bows before i even got outside the range of the mursaat tower. i did this mission with henchies before, but now its completely impossible. even if i wanted to join a pug, i didn't see many people in rof anyway, and the few that were there were probably there for the mission, not to cap. if i can't use the henchies, and can't join a pug, then how am i supposed to cap?

anet, please give us our old henchies back!

Matsumi · Sep 23, 2006, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zardeone

Oh and btw, I can't remove the flags once they are placed. People told me to doubleclick the radar flag thingy or the red X but those either don't do anything or are greyed out. So I have to manually send my henchies everywhere. What gives?

I've just been using the cancel button up by the compass or placing the flag somewhere else. Still sort of working with it myself though.

Fossa · Sep 23, 2006, 10:02 PM // 22:02

One problem is that when you have a flag up and everyone dies the hench will rush to the flag from the res shrine, so you have to cancel the flag fast after being resurrected at a shrine.

Otherwise the flag system is working pretty decent even with aggressive hench, at least where I tried it, Kurzick side from House zu Heltzer to Unwaking waters.

Edit: And if you're 2 players + hench it's very good

Elewyn · Sep 23, 2006, 10:11 PM // 22:11

I play together with my girlfriend, filling the rest of the group with henchmen, and before this update we could usually split them and have the melee henchmen follow her (she plays a Warrior) while I hold the caster ones together with me in the backline so they don't get shot.

After the update the henchmen will just stick together with whomever is the party leader. That's fine and all, if I make the party they all stay with me, but the problem is that when I send in the melee henchmen into battle, they'll run in, and then run back after they leave my aggro circle, bringing some of the enemies into our aggro circle and causing havok in the backline.

It's really great in Nightfall where she can control her heroes and I can control mine, individually, but in Factions and Prophecies, where you can only control the henchmen as a group, it can be pretty awful with some class combinations.

Rosemary · Sep 24, 2006, 04:34 AM // 04:34

They need to fix Jamei's AI. Now she dies more often and quickly. Sometimes she'll just stand there and not heal at all.

Fossa · Sep 24, 2006, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Couldn't agree more the hench healers are a big problem. The find it much more interesting wanding something to death than actually healing people. The whole team seems sluggier.

I do wish this event would be over soon so that Anet can betatest their new hench AI without us. Imagine the old hench AI with the flag system

Solar_Takfar · Sep 24, 2006, 04:09 PM // 16:09

So, I'm one of those people who use henchmen in most situations (except when doing missions when guildmates are evailable, and even then parties are often completed by henchmen).

So far, the update to henchmen is a mixed bag, at best.

Between the update on the 20th and the start of the event is was an utter and complete failure; I wasted the better part of an evening failing missions because of the henchmen's stupidly aggressive behavior and inability to break away from combat (thus making it impossible to perform pulls by aggroing and retreating, which worked perfectly before).

After the event started, we got access to the "flag" option. This caused an immediate change in the way combat with henchs is performed and made the option to pull available again. Now, if you place the flag at an appropriate location, you can pull enemies (with a longbow, even, which was broken earlier!) and the henchmen will only engage when the enemies reach their position. This is GOOD. however, there are a few setbacks in the new system.

First thing; before the update, the monk healers would be around to protect and heal you while you did the aggro-pull, which allowed you to get out unscathed of most situations while pulling (except for multi-mind burn spikes by afflicted elementalists or mind freeze by ice imps). Now, you have to leave them at a greater distance, so you must pull all by yourself, so you better have some sort of protection buff before trying a pull against dangerous enemies (especially ranged attackers). This problem is partially mitigated by the fact that you can now pull using the longbow, which means you are exposed to their attacks by a shorter period.

Second; if you do manage to pull, but the battle goes bad for some reason (ie, if henchmen inadvertently aggro another group - which seems to happen more often, as their movement is more erratic after the update - or if you're waylayed by a patrol group), then you can almost certainly count on a party wipe, since the aggressiveness problem from the 9/20 update still remains. You can run, but the henchmen will most likely not follow you, even if you run a whole radar away. that's VERY BAD still.

Third; the monks seem a lot less skilled at their jobs now. Before, they would heal and protect you (and other henches) quick and easily; now, you are mostly left on your own to keep yourself alive. I don't know about other proffesions, but the drop in monk effectiveness is the most readily noticeable.

On the other hand, a few good things (other than being able to bow-pull) came with the update. For one, you can move around the battlefield a bit without the henchmen automatically breaking from their duties and following you. This is especially important for death-blossom-assassins, cyclone-axe warriors and dervishes, who always have to be on the look for the best position for unleashing their aoe attacks (still, if this makes them unable to disengage in a gone-bad situation, I'd much rather have it remain as it was before). Another plus is the fact that you can now command them to move away while you are dead. While this does not always work (see the problem on disengaging described above), it -could-, with some careful planning, allow a recovery from what would be a party wipe. In fact, I did this once using Koss, by making him passive, getting him away from combat, and carefully getting him to rebirth every party member while outside aggro range. Of course, You have a lot more control over him (a hero) than you do over henchmen, but with some luck you might be able to do this if a monk hench survives from battle.

So, what could be made to solve some of the problems we're having?
First are foremost: allow the option to set aggressive/defensive/passive behavior for henchmen (or, at very least, a fight/flight toggle). This would allow for better pulling and, perhaps more important, recovery from dire situations. Even if it was just a single setting for ALL henchmen, it'd still be a huge improvement on the current situation (as of now, it seems all henchs - or at least all warriors, given their extreme reluctance to disengage - are on "aggressive" mode)

Second: work out why the monks (and perhaps other henches) aren't using their skills as they should, and FIX IT.

Third: of course, there's the long outstanding issue of pathing. Henchmen (and every other NPC-friendly or moster) have a terrible tendency to get stuck in corners and/or in other characters, sometimes making movement a pain, and causing needless deaths. Teach them to go AROUND an obstacle, for christ's sake, not to fruitlessly stand between two obstacles while they get killed and take no action.

Lastly; from the wording in their announcements, it seems the henchment AI changes are definitive, while the "flag" functionality will be available during the preview only. If such is the case, henchmen will be basically nonfunctional for the whole month that separates the end of the event and the launch of Nightfall. My request is that either a) the AI changes are reverted until the flags are implemented for good; or b) the flags are implemented immediately and definitively (even if pending ulterior adjustments and fixes in future updates).

It is, of course, of great importance that this thread is read by anet and that appropriate action is taken, as henchmen are an important and integral part of the game, and making them non-working can thorougly destroy the enjoyment of the game for a large slice of the playerbase. I'll leave this post up for a while so it can be read by A-net staff, and if no response comes, I'll be pm-ing and otherwise calling the attention of Gaile Gray until we can get an assurance that they acknowledge the problems and will actively work on fixing them.

Fossa · Sep 24, 2006, 07:06 PM // 19:06

I do think they will return the old hench AI until Nightfall is released. From the official site.

Quote:

Preparation for the World Preview Event

The following Guild Wars Nightfall updates and balance changes are being published in beta form, in preparation for this weekend’s World Preview Event. After the conclusion of the weekend event, they will be removed from the game again until the release of Guild Wars Nightfall.

* Updated the artificial intelligence of all henchmen.